How Great Leaders are Transformed by Learning

You’re going to love this interview with Nicole De Falco, Co-Founder and CEO of Upsurge Advisors. She is high-energy, fast paced, engaging and incredibly talented. For the last 29 years, Nicole has transformed leaders’ lives through learning. 

Nicole has a knack for combining brain science, purposeful practice, and gameful engagement to ignite a change in behavior. By aligning development strategies with company objectives, the solutions she designs, and often facilitates, improves performance to propel businesses forward.

She also loves the art and science of learning. She enjoys creating fun, challenging, effective facilitated, self-paced, and blended learning. Nicole’s secret sauce is a mix of neuroscience, narratives, and playfulness that produces rich learning journeys. Learners enjoy, engage, and get equipped through discovery, play, practice, reflection, feedback, and immediate application. She believes serious learning happens when we don’t take ourselves so seriously!

Nicole has been involved in all aspects of performance improvement consulting including training development, sales, marketing, and delivery. Having led an instructional design department and served as a Vice President on the executive team of an international sales training firm, she understands and can speak to executive level priorities and expectations.

Nicole graduated from Northwestern University with a Bachelor of Science in Speech, and received her MBA from the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

You can connect with Nicole on LinkedIn at: linkedin.com/in/nicoledefalco.

Go to upsurgeadvisors.com to learn more about Nicole and her firm.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:04
Welcome to the Red Rock leadership Podcast. Everyone, this is your host, Jeff Ruby. And on this show, I have a very special guest. Nicole DeFalco and I just get a kick it right over to Nicole and say, Welcome to the show. Nicole. Tell us who you are. Tell my audience who you are. And let's just get this thing started.

spk_1:   0:21
Well, hello. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I am a complete learning geek who loves to transform leaders, lives through learning. And I have been doing that for a very long time. Jeff. And I'm really excited to talk leadership with you today.

spk_0:   0:37
Absolutely. And you, Nicole? What's the name of your organization?

spk_1:   0:40
It is upsurge in risers.

spk_0:   0:43
Very cool. And you and I met in a very I would say as a gen Xer. Very non conventional sort of. Ah, New Agey way, right. How did we meet?

spk_1:   0:53
We met the A LinkedIn. It was Ah, Turtle, you know, just reaching out to one another that way. So

spk_0:   0:59
we just gen xers don't do it this way. But here we are networking on the internet, and you know, we connected and and you said Hey, let's have a conversation And we jumped on a phone call and instantly we I think we found some synergies and just in terms of how we both approached leadership and just as the more I talked to you that my thought What? This is somebody I have to have on that on the show. And I think we're really bring some great insight, Teoh to the leaders out there and be an inspiration. Encouragement. So, you know, why don't you just tell a little bit about a day in the life of Nicole and what you do on a daily basis and who are your clients? And what do you do all day?

spk_1:   1:40
Question? You know, my husband and kids are asking me that all the time. What about seven o'clock at night, I call down and say, Night out of my office mail. I designed learning. So that is what I do all day long is, I think about what do leaders need to be doing on, you know, out in the world, right? What are those skills? One of the mindsets in the habits. And then my job is to say, How can I create a test ground of practice ground a safe space for them to test out those new ideas. Those new methods and mindsets get confident and comfortable with them, so that when they go out back dealing with their people, they're able to make those changes so that they're improving how they're interacting with their folks. So that's what I do all day and it's It's creative and game full and playful, and I love it. And then I get to facilitate a lot. So I get toe test out all of these things that I put together, which is a lot of fun.

spk_0:   2:40
How long have you been doing it?

spk_1:   2:42
You know what? Since I was 21 years old, I I answered a little two line ad in a paper called The Reader in Every spent when I was at Northwestern and went to work for an HR development firm, and I've been hooked on learning and leadership development ever since then.

spk_0:   2:58
That's really cool. I think that's one of the things that in sort of intrigued me about you is that there are a lot of folks out there that entered the space because they feel as though they've worked corporate America for a number of years, and they want to come back and contribute. And many times they jump in and they jump out, Not realizing or recognizing that this really is a career. This really is something you have to invest your time in. So you are your, um your facilitator, your trainer, right?

spk_1:   3:29
Yeah. A coach for a facilitator. Right? I yeah. Well, I mean what we've learned what's in the other part of being a geek about all this is I love the brain signs. Right? So when I started, the word trainer was very big faculty. A lot of companies will still use that term for the people who lead learning. Uh, but what? You know, what the brain science tells us is that the learner needs to be at the center rights? No. Um, and we are just facilitating a process that they need to go through. So it's very different, right? No more sage on the stage is

spk_0:   4:01
No, it's good. That's, um and I It's so interesting. I have ah, very similar approach. You know, my client will say, you know, what do I call you? And I say, why you just I would prefer if I could get to the level of trusted adviser And then then I can just do whatever you need me to do, right? So you need some coaching. I could do some coaching. If you need some training, I could do some training, but I think facilitator is probably the best word to describe someone who keep the organization motivated. Keeps the organization going. Looking to you. I'm expecting that a lot of these leaders and folks inside the or ization work with They're looking to you as okay, World where? How do we restart this project? Or were, you know, how do we launch this particular way of doing business? Do you get into the actual business development aspect, or is it purely leadership? Are you involved in all facets of in order to

spk_1:   4:56
it really depends on what the organization needs. Um, I did get my MBA from diversity. Ah, go. And so I take a little bit of a different approach than a lot of traditional instructional designers might, uh, so I really look at learning is a strategic water, and I I look at people as in fact, I heard you want a podcast heart to somebody. And you said that that CEO considers his people is great assassin. And you hear a lot of talk about that, right? But organizations where people truly are the priority, you have to sort of start with the people first. So I look at it as you know, let's make sure that when you you know, a lot of tens of starts out as an order, right? We need negotiation, training,

spk_0:   5:37
exactly. Communication training. I like that,

spk_1:   5:40
right? Exactly. Like that's a great topic. Any particular reason why you know, you think that and when you dive in and you find out that you know while are you know, all your sales, it's a kind of an easy one, although I tend to get more of the leadership versus sale side. But, you know, I have gone requests like negotiation skills, right? And then I find out that you know, the managers are compensated on margin and the sales people are compensated on revenue, and I Look, I'm on amazing learning designer like you will not find anybody better. But I will tell you right now you might as well yourself of money on fire because you're paying them on revenue. So that's why they're dropping margin to zero and selling units, right? Exactly. So I think that's really where I come at it from an organization. Point of view is to say, What are the business priorities? What are the drivers that we're trying to attain? Um, and an influence right, the leverage we're trying to pull. And then let's look at how we can equip people to support that strategy,

spk_0:   6:38
right? And so I love the I love the approach, right, Equipping and years I love you. So you you could tell you're somebody who's had years of experience because you're speaking toe leadership when you say that. But you're speaking about the people that they lead. But the reality is, until leadership gets their act together, right until they can see how all this comes together, then no, wait. Is it going to be affected? Down line? Talk about that a little bit. If when you come into an organization, if there's a CEO out there right now, that's thinking to themselves. You know, I need I know I need I know I need to be a better leader. They almost all great CEOs will think that even if they are great CEOs, they'll think I could be better. But I really have to develop my people. And, boy, that just hit a hot button right there that I've got one part of the organization is focusing on margin. The other focus, the other focuses on revenue. Boy, you're you're hit a whole bunch of hot buttons. Suppose they're thinking right now, you know? Where would where would Nicole starting point be with me? I wonder if they're thinking so and and I know it's different because all situations are different. But if you're like me, you have your brain sort of things that things in sequence, right? So what would be sort of in a in an 80% of the time category would be your typical approach to to an organization who may just be looking for negotiation training, but ultimately it's going to roll back up, and they're going to need much more than that. What would be your approach?

spk_1:   8:16
So I take it's called performance Consulting. I take it when I call it Shirt is caused. Look at things that I say, Well, what is happening right now in the business, and we look at a lot of different things. We started out. Obviously, if it's, you know, a training request. We always start with the people, right? It was like, if you could just fix my people, give them the training till then, you can give them to you for eight hours, you know, um, right, like, you know, like it stayed here. Um, So I start out with, Well, you know what is happening right now. And what would be the ideal, right? Like what? You know, if you could If I said we're CEO or a leader. You know, if we could just, like, snap our fingers and all would be well in the world, what would that look like? And now you get if you can kind of imagine two columns of descriptors, right? And there's a gap in between those two columns. So the conversation then becomes what's in the middle, what is causing the difference between where we are and where we should be? And then the only things that learning will affect our I caught cash, knowledge, attitudes, skills and habits. Oh, that's go. Then that agree what I learned years ago, I set out to first more. Actually, nursery is talking up, but it's not like attitudes, skills and habits. When we look at the human performance system, when we say, you know, there are a lot of things affecting behaviour, learning can impact the cash. Uh, then we also have to look at things around the person, the inputs, the outputs, the feedback moves. So that's where you know, one of things that I love, that you do Japanese think it's so great is your flat out say, if the leader John on board, you're not coming right and I deal with that a lot where it is, you know, kind of joke about give them the training pill. But a lot of times it's like, Look, I I could give him a whole pharmacy. You're the problem, right? Like there's no under your arm Allah and I don't think quite my way. So any leaders who are like breaches gonna my old business parties say, be a burned on my saddle Not quite that way, but But that is a little bit of what has to happen, right, because the culture effects every so I also love that that's what you do is you focus on the culture because, um, you know, it's attributed to Peter Dropper, right? But culture read strategy for breakfast. That's so true, right? You can have the great and that's why people are strategic, as in terms of how we get anything done, because they're the ones who executes. Exactly. There's affect the environment in which people they are the environment in which the people that work, right. So I look at it that there are, you know, first of all, we have to make sure is it cash we're addressing and that's where the learning comes in. And then we go into what the learning design is gonna look like because no, I can't give them the drink. Brain science tells you the training pill that's a poor. So we're not going down that now we're gonna create a journey because learning is a journey. But I also need the leaders to be on board to say their organizational things that have to change, process things, systemic things and then obre the way, Mr Mrs Later we might need to look at Ah, a little self awareness for you and the emotional intelligence to drive the

spk_0:   11:21
right exactly in on that subject. Emotional intelligence. When you design a training plan, how much and you know because you've listened my podcast and I think you've read the book. And so you know that I'm really the basis of leadership for me and the way that I it when I approached an organization. I'm always looking at the emotional intelligence of the organization that also ultimately reflects back on the leaders. But how much does that play a factor in into the design of of what you do?

spk_1:   11:52
It's almost all of work to do. And then when we look at leadership development and we look at the learning side of it when we talk about that knowledge, not to skills and habits, um, that's why I love being in the leadership space I'm all about used the term exponential growth so I'll use that. But that that multiplier effect. In other words, if I can infect one person and that one person is going to radiate that impact out, that's fantastic, right? So I don't need to address a crowd of a 1,000,000. I can touch one leader and that leader than right, every sphere of influence if they touch. So it's all about emotional intelligence. It's all about helping each individual to become aware of where am I? The thing about learning, as I said, but the learners of the sun and so they're they're like, two main conditions in which somebody is gonna change, right? I have to be willing to change, and I have to be motivated, right? And so what we're really looking at is, um I'm sorry. Unable to James like William, so will a is I have to see something. I have to either see a prize that I want to go attain or have to recognize a price I'm. And that's where that self awareness comes in, which is really a key, you know, foundation for that emotional intelligence to grow is that self awareness core 100 right started their recognize where you are, and then you have to look at and recognize how my affecting others with my behavior and then reading the room, being able to see what's happening, the dynamic among people in the building relationships. So everything in the learning sphere for leaders really is centered around that idea of up in the e que

spk_0:   13:34
right? Exactly. And I knew that was the case. I think so. Often I sometimes think that my podcast e get good reviews and people listen, I just and one of the reasons I'm aiming to have more guests like yourself. It's just give people a different perspective and not to run in that same old track of emotional intelligence. But can you a expand upon that even a little bit further? Because thank you. Just you hit the nail on the head when we speak about e que we really are. I talked about the most intelligence, an organization. But the reality is we're speaking about one person, right? One person at a time. If you if somebody said to you Now hear all kinds of it just seems to be the buzz. You know, emotional intelligence, emotional intelligence. I mean, in that I want to know what that phrase means. But what What? What is it going to entail? What? What? What are you gonna work on? How do I increase my emotional intelligence? But would your answer to that being not that somebody would actually ask you that? But But what would that What would the answer be

spk_1:   14:37
it again? It starts with that self awareness right is to look at, you know, I learned a great phrase just recently, and that was what else might be true, right? So we come into situations and we say we need to have a culture of feedback will use that. That's another big president. But it's very important that we have found feedback is huge for learning self reflection, feedback, getting input from others. But it's a huge, you know, change maker for for human behavior. But so you get a later says Okay, we need a culture of feedback and, you know, and my people are, you know, are managers air terrible about giving Cibak? Nobody wants to give me back. People don't want to receive feedback and you say, Well, what else might be true right now we want to blame and say people just read it or whatever What else might be true? Well, what else might be true is that when I come to you and I tried to express you, Manager, this is how I'm feeling about a particular situation where I need more input from you. I get the Yeah, but for right like, yeah, but she has what? I just need you to dio, right?

spk_0:   15:44
So hold on one say, just just hold on. Because this I do this a lot during the podcast. Why tell people now? I know you're just driving along right now. Nobody's driving right now, but you're sitting there, right? Or you're walking the dog or you're on your treadmill and your everything is you just You're taking all this in stride it. But now is the point where I'm told listeners you need toe. Listen. So what Nicholas saying? Okay, so I want you not to break up your because you're on a really good role right there. But listener, please, I'm begging you. Listen to what she's saying because she's talked to you. Okay? And I think this is the one thing that I I you know as as facilitators as trainers and coaches, right? Whatever we might call ourselves. But when we get into an organization, sometimes will be speaking to a group, and then that group will sit and go. Yeah, that's that. I'm glad you're saying that. Well, there in the room, right and everything. You

spk_1:   16:41
know, laughter them, right?

spk_0:   16:42
Yeah. You're thinking Hold on six. So those of you that are on the treadmill right now are walking your dog or whatever you do, or you listen to this podcast, I want you to stop and listen. And maybe even if you're in a place where you could take some notes. Listen what Nicole's saying. And can you just back up and talk about the yeah buts? Because that's that's important. Go for it. Sorry to interrupt you go.

spk_1:   17:00
It absolutely is so right at the boy. You're like, Yeah, but you go. You know, somebody comes to you with with input, amusing example Feedback. Somebody comes to you with important, you say? Yeah, but you need to go do this, or I need that from you. Right. So that's an example where there's low self awareness, right? So a

spk_0:   17:15
from the person saying that yes, the person is

spk_1:   17:19
a manager, right? So I think as leaders, what happens is we say that we want it's exactly what you sever. I'm gonna bring in the motivational speaker. I'm in a British pilot. Jeff, you do motivated going to bring in Jeff. He's gonna fire them off and they're going to go and they're going to be different, right? And that's not really the case, because then I go back into my world. I actually saw a matter leader. She's phenomenal leader, and she was talking about feedback. And she's very open and very willing to share. Um, you know, with her team. And so she was starting with self reflection and sharing, and it was like crickets in the room. And everybody loves her. I mean, she's a She's a well respected love leader. But that idea of giving input the group wasn't there yet that behavior change wasn't there yet because she's also somewhat of a little bit more formal person. And so the idea of saying, Yeah, you need to work on that Nobody was risking their career on that moment. Right?

spk_0:   18:16
Right. So So here's the question. I mean, you bring a good point. So So now what right do you have these? Yeah, buts. And you have a leader who says Okay, I'm willing to take it. I'm willing to be that person, but there's the steps that they have to follow, right? I mean, it takes time, and this is where I talk a lot in the book about trust, right? Idea Trust. You have to build that trust. And I think it's so important to understand that. And I say this a lot that if you want to be trusted, you must trust first.

spk_1:   18:52
I love that. Yes,

spk_0:   18:53
right. And I think there's so many leaders that that will say Okay. Yeah, I know I've been this way for a long time, but I'm really I'm willing to change. So here I am. I've changed. Tell me what you think and they're all sitting there in the followers. Sit there going. We don't believe you, right? Way right. And then the leader gets all upset. They go back in their office and they say, Well, see, this is what I'm talking about. Nobody participates nobody to what they're thinking, right? And that you have to catch him in that moment. Say, but But hold on a minute. This is all part of the process, right? Is that you have to be careful not to go back into your office and now complain secretly complain or publicly complained about the way you feel, because the more they see you making those steps of Overture toward them, the more likely they're going to be to trust. And so there will be a process talk a little bit about that process of you could just about how a leader who's willing to avail themselves and who really does step forth. And I know you have success story upon success to Ripon success story and feel free to bring a couple of those in the light here. But what has happened when that leader has decided that? You know what? I'm gonna listen to what you have to say. I'm going to step forward and I'm gonna be patient, and I'm gonna trust to be trusted. Did it? Did it actually ever

spk_1:   20:08
happen? Oh, yeah. I mean it it. But again, it you The key thing that you just said was it takes time, right? Behavior change again. You know, I've been doing this for so many years, and it used to be bring people into the eight hour event and that is in the back. And that's not what happens. Right? Learning progresses over time. Behaviour change takes time. So it's the leader who's willing to sit in the moment of crickets when nobody will give input and then recognize that with one person it's just one person. Makes one comment. And you you just dropped by to go. Thank you so much. Right? And even if it's a harsh comment or its negative or you're like, Wow, here we go again. There. So and so with the negativity, right? Use that. Are you kidding? That person just opened up the door and how you respond. You know, back in the day, with sales turning right, it used to be like, what would they used to say? Like the first person who speaks loses, right? Brilliant advice. Uh, yeah. Thank goodness we have

spk_0:   21:06
a whole bunch of that brilliant advice out there,

spk_1:   21:09
you know? But I remember. But there's a little bit too that in the sense of, you know, if if you were using feedback is an example. But right, when you ask for people to make a change and to come along with you and to trust you, whether you like what it looks like in the early days, right now is a little messy. It's the leaders who recognize it. Thank you instead of yeah, but or I go or I'm gonna work on that or I'm sorry. How about you just look at the person and take that gift, right? Is he like, thank you so much for your bravery, Jeff, To step up and be the first to step into this space. And so that's really what you know. It's the leaders who acknowledge and reinforce the changes and recognize that it's not gonna be perfect, right? You know, it's going to be messy and sloppy and, you know, like, okay, we just worked on storytelling. It was are really clunky example of storytelling. But you thank the person for having the bravery to use a story instead of a power point, right? That actually that you know?

spk_0:   22:13
No. And I to your point, I wanna I wanna emphasize thing here to the listeners that tune into this show so they can see again that it's not just me. Um is tossing these pontifications out terror. What everyone say? Just putting these thoughts out there, that that this this is there really is a process. And I think what you described very, very clearly was this idea. When a leader decides that they're gonna up their level of personal awareness, right, and they're going to be patient. And then when somebody finally does speak up, even if it's something that's not what they wanted to hear, that you respond with empathy, right? And I would say empathy is the foundational skill of leadership. But empathy is almost non existent to those who have low self awareness and what you know, when when use your there is a leader out there somewhere. And it probably was me at one time That said, Okay, I'm willing to take whatever you want a dish out. So here I'm an open book. I'm an open door share, but with me, whatever you want. And and so somebody says something like, Well, you know, whenever you start a meeting, you never start with the positives. You already start. Still, we stop. Start with the negatives, right? That's perhaps that just maybe, some feedback they give me It was a well intended. It was a well intended comment back to me, however, since but since I'm not really ready to receive it, um, I may respond back by saying, Well, it's very difficult to respond with positive comments when everything is always negative, and that's why we're having these meetings. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm trying to be helpful, but I'm not. This is not helpful at all. Right? And then that shuts the other person down. It's always state of folks assume positive intent, right? A sim positive 10. So when you you decide that you're gonna up the your level of personal awareness, you've got to be able to sit there and save yourself. Assume positive 10. So no matter like you said, whatever common comes at you. Whatever comment comes at you, you have the bravery to be able to say, you know, that's a good point. That is a good point. That's really interesting. You say that, you know, thanks so much for sharing that comment. You know, that makes a lot of sense, you know, And you don't have to admit that it makes a lot of sense to you, like you're fully comprehending it. But just by simply acknowledging what that the person is saying and then you could see their body language, their tonality, Tonelli, everything begins to change. Then that empathy kicks in. And by the way, empathy is reciprocal, right? So as soon as you to display that empathy. The empathy starts coming back to you. So very cool,

spk_1:   24:47
though. Here's the mind blower in that scenario that you that you just positioned, right? So the really great leader, the collaborative leader, right, would. And the highly influential leader then turns to the person and says So how might we fix this? Yes, right. So instead of saying I'm start like, that's a great comment and I'm gonna go back and do what I was going to do before or that's a great comment, I'm gonna go take it, come up with a solution and show back up that and no one could be brought in because no one had a voice in it. But I'm gonna do more on to you as opposed to having us figure this out together. So the really the quantum leap as a leader is to get collaborative and say, How might we might leave change the tenor of our meetings in the tone and then giving other people this world giver to the sage on the stage? Right. This is what the next generation wants on. And I know our generation is having a bit of an issue with this because we took a lot of stuff rolling downhill from the generation before us, and we couldn't wait to get to the top so that we could start rolling some stuff down from the hill.

spk_0:   25:51
Oh, yeah,

spk_1:   25:52
But that's not this next generation. The next two generations have said this cycle ends here.

spk_0:   25:58
Oh, you are so poor

spk_1:   26:00
Not blue in that

spk_0:   26:01
small. So on point. Absolutely.

spk_1:   26:03
Just need Teoh, I you know, it's funny, cause I I have, you know, friends who are off our generation and they sit there and complain a lot about, you know, it's a little bit of like, you know, the bye bye birdie, right? You know, why can't they be like we work And which, by the way, only people older than us or nodding right now and other people got five. I burn so little one there for the boomers, that's not the way it should be. I applaud the younger generations for their kind of coming into the workforce and saying, I am not waiting until I am 40 to have a voice of the table. I am not right and I'm not waiting, You know, I'm not going to sit here and work things in the basement of a law firm, hoping someday to be able to take the elevator upstairs. I want having him. So I think the wise leaders and the leaders who are self aware and who do have that embassy in that high i Q would be wise to to say, How might, you know, bring those voices to the table. There was a great book, was written a while ago by the Brafman brothers while ago called Sway. Okay, No. Oh my gosh, it's It's a quick read. So so. Especially since now we all have time during, but I would. But there they bring up a great point about influence and a tremendous source of influences spareness. So people will be happy with an outcome satisfied with an outcome, even if it's not the outcome they had originally wanted. But if the process to get there is bare, then people will be okay with the outcome. So you know, if you think about even in car body, right, when do we get upset? Well, when we feel like there's something going on behind the closed doors and the price just comes out Adam. So let me go talk to my manager. Right? As opposed to when we have a dialogue. When we talk it through. Right, and you say OK, but that's there, right? Yeah,

spk_0:   27:59
you're you're so on point. And I'm tracking so someone nicely with you. And this idea of heroic leadership is kinda go by the wayside. Collaborative leadership has take front center. And, you know, I always say to my used to say to My kids don't say anymore, They're they're too old now, but and thankfully, I don't have these same issues I did when they were younger. But the one thing they say is listen, everything doesn't have to be equal to be fair and I think you know so much about and I and I do speak out. I am a gen xer and I do speak out against the behavior style, the gen Xer. Even though I mean, once a general, always eugenics, I'm a recovering heroic leader, right? I mean, I'm not going to say I've mastered it. I find myself in these traps every now and again. But this idea of equality, right? And the thing everything has to be equal. We really have to really break free. And really, it's not just the Gen Xers. This is with all generations. Does some we have to understand is that things don't have to be equal to be fair. And, um, I think when you involve everyone in that collaborative conversation, then everything turns out to be fair. The other words. There's somebody that needs to say 10 to get their point across and somebody can get their point across in forwards, right? And you don't That person's not right in this person, Not wrong. It just everybody contributes on their own basis based on their level of knowledge, their education, their position in the organization there. EXP Syrian It's their age where they come from, you know, in the in the world. So there's a lot. There's a lot, he said, For this idea of collaboration,

spk_1:   29:33
yeah, well, and what you're talking about is the power of that collaboration. Unlocked diversity, right? Like diversity is a wonderful thing. It's useless if we're not inclusive. Exactly that. That collaborative. Let me hear from you. Let's give every voice right. So what does need to be equal is the air time? Yes, right. Everybody needs to be able to contribute to the process. You know, in the process of coming up with the solution. Let all voices we heard because of the power of diversity. Yes, that's a locking the differences in thought and experience and perspectives and ideas and intelligences and strength. And that's really where we get the difference. So, you know, in terms of leadership it's so crucial to recognize, you know, I have a lot of leaders and say OK, well, I went through the, you know, the diversity training. And I'm aware my my unconscious bias is now conscious. What do I do? And you know, it's not funny, but it's like will now be inclusive. And that's feel so daunting. And it turns out that inclusive leadership is really, you know, something that popped up in the 19 seventies called Situational Leadership. Right? Remember that? What? Uh, but that's really what it's about. It's recognize little things, right? Not everybody wants to be stood up in front of the whole room and applauded. Some people just want a quiet note in the background from recognition that that's an inclusive behavior Blows leader's mind when they're like That's it

spk_0:   30:56
you train people be collaborative. You train people to trust each other. Turn you train people to learn how to persevere. Together you increase their emotional intelligence. And when you do that right, diversity is something is just It happens, right? The appreciation for diversity now becomes something that becomes that the grows within an organization

spk_1:   31:17
you have tow. This is a good example of that shirt is cause right. So what's your point? Systemically you have to be hiring a divert, right? You have to get out of the mold of you know I went to X Y Z University. I only hire people from X y z University. I like that about you. Try to get somebody who doesn't live in the metro area. You know exactly where to find someone with a different zip code, different color, skin, different age, whatever it is. But once they come into the environments you have to solve for the processing, the system problems, we have to make sure that there is equality. And in a certain, um even this in terms of who gets promoted and why right, that that has to be worked out. Those air, all systemic things But then, to your point as leaders, we have to be able to lead with vulnerability. We have to first importance where the trust comes in, right? You brought that up earlier, right? Start out by being vulnerable first and making it safe, psychologically safe for other people to be vulnerable as well. And then said a shared goal, right? This comes from Dan Coils, but the culture code is fabulous. When he looked at you know what? What is the culture of high performing groups looked like And that's what it is, or the signals of safety and vulnerability in a narrative that we all are moving in the same direction. I want to jump really quickly back because you have a point of being, he said. I am recovering heroic leader, right? And I want to go with circle this back to learning a little bit because when we talk about this idea that there is no training right, I think we need to look at learning a lot like video bins. So, uh, in a video game and not that I want I'm not really a game or something. You're really honest. But I said to bond with my 18 year old. I do sit on the margin washes, so there's a training ground like there's a point where entering the game, I set up my character equipped my character and I can test no different weapons or whatever it is what I can sort of play with the tools of the trade in the safe environment. And then I go into the game and I would really love leaders to understand that. That's what learning is. It's that equipping in that training ground. But by the way, I can go on a mission in the game and it could be terrible. But I I get, you know, just die, and I lose my four lives immediately give. I then go back to the training ground and I practice some more. And that is really what the future of learning needs to look like is that we are creating these environments where learners Poulsen impulse out when they can come in, especially readers. Let me let me try that conversation before I have that conversation and let me come back to approach like Jap and say, Jeff, this is what happened. This is what I did well This is where I think I'd like to be differently. What do you think? And then get that feedback move going right? It's not. Practice makes perfect this perfect practice expression being delivered about how I practice and then going back out in trying and applying the feedback. So I think we just need to look at learning as something that is just contain in US six variance for meters and in providing all these different avenues for readers to continually grow as opposed. Teoh. Yeah, once a year, you show up with the sales event and we have a motive in people's business. I'm glad you know, you know, you know, those are not. But how

spk_0:   34:31
great would it be if you are able to bring that motivational speaker end? And all they did was really complement and put an exclamation point on

spk_1:   34:40
what was not on here? Exactly. Movie. And I'm not knocking it. I mean, it has its place, but it's only one art. I think that I think that's the biggest thing. We were

spk_0:   34:50
not the substitute, right. It's the it's the exclamation point. It's the it's sort of the reward that you bring. It's like the desert, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know that

spk_1:   35:00
you could kick off because, as I said, I needed willing and able and a good motivational speaker. An inspirational person might help me get that self awareness moment. Oh, I do you better. I want to do more of that right? Or how do I get that? That's where it's a fabulous thing. It just has to be followed up with that requiring environment. And with that equipment process,

spk_0:   35:23
Well, that was the great great little segment right there. Great job. Really explaining that kind of picking up on that recovering, heroic leader comment. I'm recovering in a lot of things, So maybe we should do another one of these. We could just make podcasts about Jeffs recovering attitudes.

spk_1:   35:44
Well, it's good vulnerability, right? I'm not not with and I happened, said one of things that I think part of my favorite part of your book honestly were some of those stories that were told, and, you know, it was like worked or that didn't work. And, um because no, it's interesting. But we learned from the underdog, right? We don't learn from the hero when we hear the hero. We actually disengaged. Yeah, right. But then you hear somebody who's like So then I did this. You know that.

spk_0:   36:16
Now, that's good. That's really good. Well, hey, listen, as we bring this in for a landing, versatile, thank you for being on this show. This

spk_1:   36:24
is very not It's a

spk_0:   36:25
lot of fun. Yeah, this a lot of fun. We'll have to do this again. But what could you leave the listeners with? What? Give us some Give us kind of Ah, 123 charge for the future and for the for those that you that are listening to this podcast. And it's not 2020 anymore. Let me remind you, what's going on is we're having this podcast, like were in quarantine right now. Nicole's in Chicago, right on the outskirts of Chicago, and I'm in Tampa, Florida, and neither one of us have been inside of a shopping mall or any a Speedos sports facility or anything. In three plus weeks, eso were confined to our homes and we are We're learning how to do everything over Zoom and and, um so this is even kind of more special that we're able to communicate this way. In this day and age of so many positives, Teoh, this idea of that were locked down in this pandemic. So if this thing becomes a time capsule and somebody else into it the years later, I will tell you this. This has been a time that has been, Ah, very, very interesting for a lot of reasons. And, um, certainly it's been heartbreaking for many who have had to endure this terrible illness. Um, and for those of us that have been confined to our homes, um, we're learning a new way of appreciation. And so this is just so when when we when we talk about these days, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about the idea that we've been we've been shut in because of a of pandemic. But if you had to give folks a 123 charge say, for driving your organization into the future and maybe the pandemic with standing right, so let's not focus on that. Let's just focus on this idea of charging to the future and for organizations that air wanting to surge and emerge. What would you say to a leader who is listening right now? if you just had to give him 123 or her 123

spk_1:   38:16
about that, right? I actually was thinking about this originally in terms of emerging leaders, because I hear a passion there, and I worked with a group called Emerging Leaders Initiative. But we found out that emerging leaders that we're all emerging with so that that would be sort of number one is. If you think you have arrived, then that's a self assessment that you're self aware. This is a little low. It's very good. We are. No one has arrived. We are all becoming so an emerging. So I think humility, Um, and you talk about these times, but these times of forces, a certain amount of humility automatically. But the real challenge is to be a leader in a in a time of abundance or a time when things were just pocket along and to remain humble and Teoh approach nor organization and approach of people with that humility, and you think that will that will keep you self aware. The other thing that I would bag of all leaders at all levels and ages and generations from all walks of life is. Can we eradicate two raisins? Is what I'd like to see. This is my life. Mission is I just decided. Yeah, but yeah, but But let's follow second city improv and go with Yes. And, um Right, Kelly. Later. Uh, so let's get rid of Yeah, but and replace it with Yes, and and also the words I know, I know. I think that this time we no one could say I know because no one knew, right? This was with the word on this point, it has become, like a staple, right. Um, but we're going to return to a certain amount of normalcy, and then the I know, I know, I know, I know. And the second you say, I know, I think your brain just shuts down, right? Your brain says, Oh, well, we know that. Why listen, right. And which sort? Active empathy and right. So I think just having that curiosity of tell me more.

spk_0:   40:21
Yeah, I love that. I love that. I'm I'm adding that to my list. The yeah buts and the eye nose. Get rid of them. And curiosity. I'm a big one for I told people. I tell people that's all the time and when I say told people this all the time, I say this to myself all the time. Be curious about what somebody's saying, right? I love what Cubby says is um you know, when you when somebody is speaking, listen with the intent, understand not what they intend to respond and that that has been a student of his seven habits for a number of years. But what you just said right there really struck a chord with me, and it's just be curious, bi curious. And it's very difficult. Be curious when you're saying Yeah, but and I know and a number of other things which these I think these two would take a really big chunk out of out of the hindrance of people growing. That's good. Now this has been fantastic. Cuticle

spk_1:   41:22
Thank you. It's been fun. Absolutely. I had a good time.

spk_0:   41:26
Cool. I did to tell us where tell the audience where they confined you if they want to contact you because you have been very insightful. So go ahead and just tell. Tell the audience where they can find you on the Internet. And of course, this is in the show notes and everything like that. But you go ahead social media and take it away.

spk_1:   41:44
I'll keep it, really. UT upsurge advisers dot com is It is a nice, easy place and then on linked in the cold felt so like then in slash Nicole DeFalco. I think those are the two easiest ways Teoh get in touch. And I would love to hear from leaders and hear what they're doing right now to equip their leaders on, develop and grow their people. In this time, I love to hear a little bit about what's going on out there from others as well,

spk_0:   42:09
right? And I know that you really would she leave me when I tell you she would love to hear it? Because the first time we picked up the phone, we didn't know each other, and within about 10 minutes I mean, we were just It was just like, you know, we've known each other for years, and we're all this conversation about, you know, just encouraging each other. And it was just really cool. And, um, I'm really I'm really happy that you're on the show. I'm really happy to have gotten to know you Nicole. And for those folks that are listening to Red Rock leadership podcast. Thank you for being here. And I just will tell you that if there's anything I could do for you, of course, you go to Red Rock leadership dot com. Subscribe to these podcasts if you ever need having a not already done so. And if you haven't, you pick up the book yet. Red Rock leadership transform your company culture and unleashed the potential for exponential growth. Please go ahead and pick a copy of that up on Ah ibooks kindle Amazon Any of the major retailers. Thanks for being here on the Red Rock leadership Podcast. Everyone make it a great day.